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Question Number: 25934Law 11 - Offside 1/29/2012RE: Competitive Under 15 Larry of Danville, CA USA asks...This question is a follow up to question 25914 Please forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse, and the length of this question, but I am still confused by the panel's responses concerning when offside involvement begins. To Referee Wickham; I think there is a difference between the panel's responses and Mr. Allen's, but I do agree with you that a wise referee should follow Mr. Allen's advice. Perhaps I have misinterpreted your answers so let me restate (and possibly refine) the question. A player in an OSP takes off after a ball from a teammate that might go out of bounds. He is not physically interfering with an opponent, and he does not interfere with the opponent's ability to play the ball, but as he runs after the ball the defender(s) give chase. When, if at all, should the AR raise the flag? I think Mr. Allen's position is clear. The flag should go up as soon as the defenders give pursuit. As he states 'That pursuit alone constitutes interfering with an opponent, because, according to the International Board, the OSP attacker has acted to distract or deceive one or more opposing players.' The fact that the ball might go out of bounds was immaterial to his decision. This appears contrary to referee McHugh's position where in response to Question 25899 he stated 'In some parts of the world including Europe this clause (the 2005 IFAB Amendment allowing an offside call without touching the ball) is now being used incorrectly. ARs are flagging for offside in situations where it is not offside such as where the ball goes out of play for a goal kick or a throw in or where the ball has clearly gone to an opponent with no interference'. Now, if his added caveat 'with no interference' means no defenders gave chase, I think that unnecessarily confuses matters. The defenders will always give chase, either immediately, or once they see the flag is not raised. I think Mr. Allen's response is also contrary to referee Wickham's position where he responded 'When there is no defender near, the referee and assistant referee must wait.' As I understand it, the proximity of a defender in pursuit of an attacker is also immaterial, and it is the mere fact the defender is pursuing that indicates interference with an opponent. If you guys could help me out, I would greatly appreciate it. One more thing to Referee Maloney, would you mind providing more insight as to why you think Mr. Allen's response 'follows the Law, the logic and spirit of the game.' I think it follows the Law, specifically as described in ATR 11.4 which sates 'A player who is in an offside position when the ball is played toward him by a teammate and who, in the opinion of the referee, attracts the attention of an opponent, drawing that opponent into pursuit, is guilty of interfering with an opponent.' However, it seems contrary to the logic and spirit of the game. If the player in the OSP did not give chase to the ball, and it went out of bounds the defense would get a throw in or a goal kick. So how is it logical that by running after a ball the defense should now get an IDFK. Also, if you think the IDFK is a logical outcome, why should it change to a goal kick or a throw-in if an onside attacker is added to the mix who might reach the ball first before it is determined the ball actually goes out of bounds. In regards to the spirit of the game, I thought it is considered best if referees don't get involved in things unless needed, and in this scenario there doesn't seem to be any need to make a call if the ball goes out of bounds. Answer provided by Referee Joe McHugh Hi Larry As we all know Law 11 is not perfect and the part of the Law that is open to interpretation is ' Interfering with an opponent'. The Law states and I quote "interfering with an opponent" means preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent's line of vision or movements or making a gesture or movement which, in the opinion of the referee, deceives or distracts an opponent. In the chase by defenders situation there are certain situations where the flag must not be raised. Those are 1. An attacker in an onside position can also touch the ball. 2. The ball goes out of play. 3. The defence gains control of the ball without interference by a PIOP In your refined question the flag should not be raised if the ball goes out of play before being touched by the player in an offside position. A good AR will adopt a 'wait and see' approach as should the referee. I hear teams complain all the time when I do not award an offside when the ball is played through to a PIOP yet the ball goes out of play for a throw in, goal kick, etc. That is dated thinking. The restart should be a throw in, goal kick even if the defenders gives chase. Also if the ball goes to the GK with defenders chasing that is not offside either. The one exception here is that if the PIOP gets close to the GK so that here might be contact the flag should go up well before that happens. When the law makers issued circular 987 in August 2005 the intention was to allow AR to flag before the touch of the ball when the AR knew for certain that the lone PIOP was going to play the ball or there was danger of contact between players. That is still the law today. What should not happen is that a flag is raised prematurely to find that the ball has gone to a player in an onside position. I believe Mr Allen has answered correctly in the narrow sense of the question and as he said it could have been posed in much more difficult ways. I believe that if you were to ask him about an onside player in the chase as well, or the ball going out of play you will get a different answer.
Read other questions answered by Referee Joe McHugh
View Referee Joe McHugh profileAnswer provided by Referee Keith Contarino Perhaps you can pose your question to Mr. Allen as you pose it here. I also believe he will answer as we would.
Read other questions answered by Referee Keith Contarino
View Referee Keith Contarino profileAnswer provided by Referee Michelle Maloney This horse is quite flayed and its bones deserve a decent burial, please. ATR 11.3 tells us active involvement may begin at any moment during the sequence of play. No number of words will ever be able to define that exact 'moment' for a referee or the AR. Only experience and common sense can answer that question based on what is in front of the AR/Ref at that time. The difference in the answers which seem confounding stem from different scenarios presented at different times. This may explain some of your continued confusion. Your confusion on my previous answer clearly seems to stem from confusing different scenarios altogether. The scenario you presented to Mr. Allen and upon which this panel commented in the previous answers did not involve a player who did not pursue the ball. If the OSP player does not pursue the ball, why on earth would the AR put up the flag? There has been no involvement at that moment. As for the logic - if the defenders choose to pursue, that means the OSP player is going for the ball or is deliberately drawing defenders. Logically, this means the OSP player is now involved. The spirit of the game does not allow a player who isn't where he should be (i.e. in an offside position) to gain from that position. Can the AR delay the flag just in case the ball goes into touch or out over the goal line? Sure - but is it wise or prudent - hasn't the AR missed the 'moment' of involvement? If there is any chance that the OSP player will interfere with the opponents while on the way there, why take the risk when the Law is very clear that OS has occurred?
"If the ball goes out of bounds"? For just two letters, IF is a big word. Why is the IDFK a good choice? Last time I checked, it is the punishment for being offside. It gives the ball to the offended team. A throw-in is always a 50/50 restart, so a TI instead of a free kick is a poor substitute. If it goes out for a goal kick, how far away from the original point of involvement has the play moved? Is a goal kick 30 yards from there the OSP player got involved equal to an IDFK from the original spot?
Read other questions answered by Referee Michelle Maloney
View Referee Michelle Maloney profileAnswer provided by Referee Gary Voshol I am sure you, our panel, and Jim Allen all have different visions of of the hypothetical play. Certainly Jim's words don't mean that if any defender anywhere moves, it is considered interfering with him by the offside-positioned player (OPP). Someone in the opposite penalty area 70 yards away might move forward in response to the through-ball going downfield, but that doesn't mean he was interfered with by the OPP. But if the attacker and defender were only 7 yards apart, then we'll be talking about offside. Also Jim's answer says nothing about 'wait and see', because the question posted to him said nothing about another attacker who was not in an offside position. That doesn't mean 'wait and see' is gone. It just means it wasn't present in this particular situation.
Read other questions answered by Referee Gary Voshol
View Referee Gary Voshol profile- Ask a Follow Up Question to Q# 25934
Read other Q & A regarding Law 11 - Offside The following questions were asked as a follow up to the above question...See Question: 25953
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