Question Number: 13885

Other 9/23/2006

RE: Select Under 14

franco of Bloomington, IN USA asks...

This question is a follow up to question 13846

This is not a question, but a comment.

Debbie Hoelscher's answer to my question 13846 that had nothing to do with the old corner arc question and is totally unprofesional and uncalled for. I Have visited this website for years and have never had such an inmature referee and one that insults a user.

Her reply to the corner arc question implies she is the one that can't let go and question must have touched nerve. Her response to both questions was very inmature, insulting and did not provide any insight to the situation. The corner arc question that seemed to put her in a hussy is somewhat controversial to say the least and not only for me but for the staff and other users of this website. I found it frustrating but never insulted any of the staff.
She is the one that cannot let it go as this question had nothing to do with it and proves my point.

I am very dissapointed and shocked in this attitude and this is the first time in all the years I have ever had a bad thing to say about this website. I have always passed on this website and included the link jn the soccer newsletter I put out. I was shocked to see such a piddly comment. I asked a legitimate question and did nothing to deserve such a smart mouth response.
Franco

Answer provided by Referee Richard Dawson

HI Franco,
ask a question and I have always tried to give a reasoned answer. From time to time I too have responded inappropriately. As volunteers our time and efforts are sometimes affected by our passion and our opinions. I was not in the loop at the time you started the corner arc thing , although I think I sailed in towards the end, as you have now contacted USSF soccer for a definitive answer most of the frustration was not you asking a question but wanting to debate the merits of the answers. I will make no apology for Ref Hoelscher's remark. She is a fine referee and and can defend her own actions. That is between you and her for the moment. Anyone who uses this site is entitled to a reasoned response. I have done so .

To those who recieved an inappropriate response percieved imagined or real sometimes as human beings we make good and bad choices. It is the price of free will and one most of us will gladly pay!
Even if we feel angry for the moment, that emotion as in a dissenting call on the FOP we are required to agree to disagree and we move on. I find that the finger point of blame generally winds up pointing in all directions. I seek to fix the rift rather than expand what ever hurt feelings that might be felt with a reminder that as colleagues we are there for the good of the game are we not?
Cheers

Answer provided by Referee Keith Contarino

I won't speak for Ref Hoelscher except to say she has an excellent understanding of the Laws of the Game and is a valued member of this panel. We are very lucky to have someone of her caliber to answer questions. We spend a lot of time, for free, researching and answering questions for you and others. Sometimes it appears that the people asking the questions are not in the least bit appreciative and want to nitpick and quibble and deny our answers. We all react to this. It's extremely irritating when I post a response and have the original questioner simply tell me I'm wrong. You might want to keep that in mind when replying to our answers. Especially when we go to the trouble of contacting US Soccer to find the correct response. The corner arc question you refer to was your question. We contacted US Soccer and published the correct response. The question didn't bother any of us and we were willing to admit our first response was incorrect and changed it based on the authoritative view from US Soccer. You told us we were wrong and our source was incorrect. True, you didn't directly insult any of us but I'm sure you can see how we all would be upset with you categorically telling us we didn't know what we were talking about and insinuated that our source was not someone with authority. Come to think of it, you were insulting us all, just not individually. I would ask you to go look at your follow up questions to the original corner arc one. Look at your wording and use of capital letters. If you honestly think your follow ups were not inflammatory or insulting, then I apologize for any of my comments that you may find insulting. I will be happy to answer any future questions to the best of my ability but I would like you to take into consideration the effort that goes into finding an authoritative, correct answer. All of us on this site have spent years developing relationships with persons of authority at US Soccer and other official organizations. I will never without explicit permission publish an answer and mention any sources name but when I tell you or any other questioner that the answer I give is based on contact with someone in authority I expect you to believe it. If you don't, then why bother coming to this site for answers? In the event that I have misunderstood advice from others, I will correct my mistake immediately as, I'm sure, any of us on this panel would. Keith

Answer provided by Referee Debbie Hoelscher

Franco,
Firstly let me start by saying that if, in all of your questions you asked, you truly sought clarification and innocently left with me the impression that you were being inflammatory or insulting, then I apologize for misunderstanding your intent.
Please allow me to share with you my perspective: I firmly believed (and until told otherwise, still do) that you set out to demean and insult this panel. In question 13848, you never once, after all of your previous 'hussy-ness' stepped back and apologized-- which, after discovering that we on this panel were deeply offended by your remarks, you should have done -- Then you wanted to carry on like everything is OK? You just expected to insult us, then not get back what you so easily seemed to give out?

I took that personally, and basically told you so. I am not one to beat around the bush, or speak out of both sides of my mouth. I will tell you like I see it and that is exactly what I did.

I have been refereeing for a long time. I have worked at the professional level. I continue to be amazed by the kinds insults coaches, parents and spectators level at the referee. It is my opinion that you insulted this panel of referees in your questions; that you insulted our integrity and you insulted each of our efforts to volunteer our time and produce credible and reliable information. I have yet to hear an apology for your "hussy-ness." Additionally, I personally am offended by your clearly gender biased statements towards me.

Answer provided by Referee Chuck Fleischer

Right, this is not an answer but a comment. Ref Hoelscher has commented on your continual disbelief in our answer concerning which painted blade of grass the ball must rest on when taking a corner kick.

Your initial question was answered incorrectly, basically, at my insistence. I corrected all previous questions regarding placement of the ball at the taking of a corner kick and sent personal notes to each person posing the question. All were accepted without comment, save one. That one belabored the subject and finally found it necessary to send a request to US Soccer that began "The Law states the ball has to be within the corner arc, this is ambiguous. What does this mean?"

You were told what it meant, were told where the information came from, and were told to check with US Soccer because what we were saying came from US Soccer. You said this to US Soccer: "I have read the LAWs of the GAME and advice to the referees 2005 and 2006 several times and discussed it with highly experienced refs and it is not clear, at least not to me." My Dear Sir, what could not be clearer than "the ball must be on the line". What could be clearer than we have checked with FIFA, through US Soccer and they say this line is different than all the other lines and that's the way it is? What FIFA and US Soccer have said is DO IT THIS WAY. It seems a simple thing to me.

But no, you continually told us we were incorrect because you were taught one way or another and we were wrong. Would it not have been simpler to say Thank You for the information and I stand corrected? Sure it would...

I sent you an e-mail containing a previous question and our responses telling you the subject was closed. In that mail I said: "Franco, your last question answered this, read Ref Dawson's answer. Kindly take up the subject with someone you haven't irritated beyond belief...

It was my intention to allow the questions you posted to be left for the panel to read and make comments on and then delete them so no one else could feel the frustration that I and the rest of the panel felt. Other panelists answered further postings honestly so they must be treated like any other question. The particular question, #13846, had an answer from me that would have burned a hole in your brain. I deleted it, but did not delete Ref Hoelscher's because it was not near as caustic as mine. You didn't like it! Fancy that -- it is perfectly fine for you to exercise your right to free speech and it is not correct for another to do the same?

AskTheRef is a resource for referees, players, coaches and interested persons who have questions about the Laws of Association Football. To a person, we volunteer our time and some of us have answered near 10,000 of your questions. You are free to ask anything you want and I am free to answer in Law and offer comment or delete your question. That?s the bargain. If you want to chat about it there are forums to do that, I have no clue what their names are or how to use them, this is what I do. If you want to use what we provide, continue writing in and when we say that's what US Soccer says, kindly accept it.

Answer provided by Referee Nathan Lacy

I have, until now, remained out of this fray. I have observed your questions and responses as well as those of the panel. You sir, have brought upon yourself the consequences of your actions - and rightly so. The tone of disdain present in the context of your previous inquiries is unquestionable and your barrage on Ref Hoelscher is merely a projection of your own level of unprofessionalism onto another. The other panel members have spoken to the purpose of this site and our desire to contribute to the development of the referee community as a whole. When one, such as yourself, decides to engage in a senseless discussion (and I am being kind in not using stronger descriptors) on trivialities that go beyond belief then you should fully expect the kind of responses that have been given. I would highly suggest that YOU raise YOUR level of professionalism before accusing other officials of their deficiencies, especially those officials with vastly greater experience than your own.